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 Post subject: Can this be a solution to solve our carrier provider problem
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:04 am
Posts: 25
Just completed long term Project :D
But I faced many problems with the client because I do turn key voip setup project.
I always introduce voip carrier provider as part of my contract but I aways have a complain :x about the carrier providers .

So most of my clients keep asking why we dont have one that are promising besides the big companies where you have to pay 15K USD deposit. And their rates are not always good.

So as an Idea and soluton which I want you guys to contribute to:
I am thinking if we can get together and trade routes within our small community we can over come the problem of fake and fraud companies. New commers will have confidence in starting their small business as well.

I am in Vancouver, Canada and I have hundreds on ports to British columbia only.
Any one like me in other countries can join me and we can trade route just like carrieXchange to ourself with very low rate.
What of scammers?.....there is a solution for that.

Once we found a False Ring 5 times (with warning) we will shutdown that members account and blacklist the IP/domain address.

I don't want to name fraud companies but we all know them. Most of them have their head office in the third world countries to escape been caugth or run away from tax.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:04 am 
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Location: Canada
Excellent idea Maoworld. I don't have any T1, but this has been my plan all along and I know a few companies in Canada who might jump onboard with you. Why? Because we have been talking about the exact same idea more than 6 months ago and it's the only way to go. We all starts small. So small that any possibilities of being noticed by huge carriers is ruled out. We appear to them as a nuisance sometimes. I will talk to my contacts and let you know.

You said ...
Quote:
I don't want to name fraud companies but we all know them. Most of them have their head office in the third world countries to escape been caugth or run away from tax.

You know what this means? It means that you are protecting them. You are giving them a change to thrive in the VoIP business and to make more victims. No offense, but I have no good feelings for those bad guys. PM me their names and I will disclose them. We are loosing all the precious trust that our customers had placed in us because of these low standard companies. We should fight them with everything we have. And if it means ruining their businesses, then so be it. I wouldn't think about it twice cause that's what they are doing to us, they are ruining our businesses.

Cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:49 pm 
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If we can get 3 or more supports on this topic I think we can go ahead to implement it. Once started, I will need some inputs to modify the user interface to only what we need. We will focus on quality and low rate routes, with minimum customer service.
Quote:
You know what this means? It means that you are protecting them. You are giving them a change to thrive in the VoIP business and to make more victims. No offense, but I have no good feelings for those bad guys. PM me their names and I will disclose them. We are loosing all the precious trust that our customers had placed in us because of these low standard companies. We should fight them with everything we have. And if it means ruining their businesses, then so be it. I wouldn't think about it twice cause that's what they are doing to us, they are ruining our businesses.

I agreed with you. I am not actually protecting them but it is going to be a repetition. They have named many in this forum already.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:14 am 
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maoworld wrote:
If we can get 3 or more supports on this topic I think we can go ahead to implement it. Once started, I will need some inputs to modify the user interface to only what we need. We will focus on quality and low rate routes, with minimum customer service.
Quote:
You know what this means? It means that you are protecting them. You are giving them a change to thrive in the VoIP business and to make more victims. No offense, but I have no good feelings for those bad guys. PM me their names and I will disclose them. We are loosing all the precious trust that our customers had placed in us because of these low standard companies. We should fight them with everything we have. And if it means ruining their businesses, then so be it. I wouldn't think about it twice cause that's what they are doing to us, they are ruining our businesses.

I agreed with you. I am not actually protecting them but it is going to be a repetition. They have named many in this forum already.


Actually this has already been discussed on here, though I am not sure what happened with the idea.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:26 pm 
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Hey GeekBoy,
Are you in suport of the idea. It has been debated for long time without any one to take the initiatives. I was expecting that also.
We need couple of guys that will contribute their routes (l am one of them and I have get some that already want to participate) . We dont want fake people or scammers anyway.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:18 am 
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maoworld wrote:
Hey GeekBoy,
Are you in suport of the idea. It has been debated for long time without any one to take the initiatives. I was expecting that also.
We need couple of guys that will contribute their routes (l am one of them and I have get some that already want to participate) . We dont want fake people or scammers anyway.



I am in support of it, but I think nobody went for it because of a few reasons I can think off the top of my head.

One is, who controls the funds? What protects people from a bad apple who takes it and runs? How would this time be allotted? Seems a server would have to be in place. Basically a whole new business would have to be created to accomplish this. Maybe a co-op?

One thing I have noticed is that a lot of these termination companies that require large payments per purchase, is that their rates are really not all that great.

I have noticed that CarrieXchange does have some great rates in the areas I am interested in, but getting them to answer questions or respond to problems is a 50/50 chance. I was ready to do business with them, but my bank required more information about the bank account holder before it will allow money to be transferred to their bank account. CarrieXchange has ignored my request. Strange thing is, I have sent money to others bank account's but I had no problem, but when I put their info into the system, it wants more info. They must know something about them I don't, and they have an account in the US.


Maybe another idea is to form a co-op of people who can terminate calls. Everyone pays in a little for the support of a server and everyone gets to use each others routes for free?

Just some thoughts. When dealing internationally this will be tough because unless a victim's cost of damages are very high, governments tend to not go after criminals. Also in many cases, going to foreign courts is also very costly to enforce cintracts, and/or seek damages.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:04 am
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Quote:
Maybe another idea is to form a co-op of people who can terminate calls. Everyone pays in a little for the support of a server and everyone gets to use each others routes for free?


creating a kind of coop is a good idea. What I now here is no one will release their route for free. here in north america rates are very cheap. But to Africa and some Asian/Europe countries rates are just too high. Even local conection with telco too is expensive, Therefore we can not use the same yardstick to measure all.
I know that there are many honest people on this forum that sell their route to the medium/big providers. they can as well sell it to what ever we created at a discounted rate. I am a busy man too. But I have people and the material to use to realise it. And like I said before we need to have the real information about who are selling and who are buying. It is unfortunate I dont have free bandwidth to do that. I understand the question who do we trust? But we have to do something for our benefit.
In conclusion, my idea is for us to buy and sell to each other. of course there will be a little margin to take care of the service but the purpose is not for profit making.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:43 am
Posts: 1060
Location: Canada
I am not sure if we are all talking about the same thing, but here is what I was thinking ...

First of all, this is business and nobody is in it for charity. Even within the network, profit could be made. But it should not be unecessarily high profits. However, higher profits can be made by selling the routes to other customers that are not part of the network and the low rate agreed upon should not be disclosed under any conditions. Also, let's not think co-op, central servers, common resources or anything that can lead to a situation where people will try to rob each others up. Let me explain what I had in mind. It is very simple. Let's assume that I have one or several T1 lines. Let's also assume that Maoworld has is T1 channels available. Him and myself would cut a deal for low termination rates in our respective calling areas. This means that depending of the cost of the PRI lines, and we do know that PRI costs may be different from one calling area to another one, the rate might be different. I could for instance let him terminate on my network for 0.002 whilst he charges 0.003 on his network, and we will all guarantee the quality as well as CLI, and most importantly we will guarantee that the channels are indeed T1 channels. Also, under no circumstances, I will use a non PRI alternate route in the event that all of my channels are busy. In such case, I will let the partners the honnor :D of using their own fail over route which may be PRI or non-PRI at their discretion.

On the other hand, each of us could sell call termination on the same channels at a "Wholesale" and a "Retail" rate depending on the kind of customers that we will be dealing with.

This model will not require any particular contract to be signed and the advantages goes both ways. If you jack you prices up or lower you quality without any good reasons, then all the other partners will kick you off their trunk list and no call will be sent or received from your network. Also, sorry, but good intentions are not enough. Someone cannot just try to jump in because they think that their SIP trunk provider is the best and has CLI, DTMF and a very good call quality. NO, NO, NO and NO. Each and every partner should have HIS OWN T1 channels. This ways, if anything goes wrong, or if any false answer is occuring, or if any CLI or DTMF is not being relayed properly, then we will know who to talk to and we will know that the partner will have all the good reason in the entire universe to reply to emails and to make sure that thinks works well in a timely manner. An excellent SIP trunk is just not enough.

Maybe I am not making any sense. Let me know if I don't.

Cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:04 am
Posts: 25
Asiby

You have a good point.
In other to do this successfully, I believe there should be a control point. If there is no one to take the lead it will be like the previuos discussion that does not produce result.
Also, It will be a pain in ass to start making an agreement with everyone. Instead I will rather pay for the pain and let some one take the stress. I agree with you to be able to protect ourself from been robbed. This is what I am very concern and looking for a solution as well. To make the business easy for all of us, I still believe that we need a central control point where we all get what we need. If only to just make connection on who provide what? It will make live easier. We may at the end of the day defeat the Big Guys that request for 10K or 15 grands deposit.
Also, If we make a 1 to 1 agreement the purpose of creating this medium will be defeated becuase the new comers will not benefit from it.
In addition, you will be receiving unwanted questions from those who doesnt know any tech and just jump to the business. I dont think I can withstand it. customer service will take hell of your time.
The most important thing is there should be no contract or minimum payment.

Anyway I will look to how we can achieve it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:52 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:07 am
Posts: 179
callingcard wrote:
Count me in.

A rented server in Canada would be about $70/month.



Actually VPS works very well and is much cheaper.
On many of providers you can start a basic system for extremely cheap, then as you need more CPU power/memory/disk space you can buy it immediately based on your need.

One would think that VPS sucks and is slow, but companies like VMWare produce a server edition that is basically a proprietary light-weight OS with the sole purpose of running those virtual machines. Since none of the running server OSs would be running graphics, they perform very well and do not bog the physical server down.

Added after 28 minutes:

Well I hope we all can come up with an idea on this.

Throw some out there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:21 pm 
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callingcard wrote:
GeekBoy wrote:
On many of providers you can start a basic system for extremely cheap, then as you need more CPU power/memory/disk space you can buy it immediately based on your need.



Do you have such a system in production and for how many calls and how much time?
I am not interested in theoretical responses, just facts.


I do have one, but I am not really putting a heavy load on it now. I have the minimal plan they had available, until I get everything the way I want it to be. The response times I am having are very good. I cannot tell the difference between a physical server and virtual one at this time.

I am developing an application for it now. You know anyway I can put an artificial load on it so I can give you some better idea?

I am also running FreePBX on the system so it gives me an idea on what is going on in the system at a glance.


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 Post subject: How about IAX2
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:52 pm
Posts: 56
Asiby, i am wondering if this idea can be an option.
How about joining multiple boxes(Asterisk) in different locations and connecting all using IAX2 and the method of compensation can be calculated based on number of calls pushed to a location.
With that we can create multiple routes and increasing our reach. In reality connecting several boxes is free (technically) but the proceeds can be divided into 2 between the person pushing the calls and the person recieving or terminating locally. A spider of Asterisk boxes in different countries with standards in place as per required bandwidth and g711 or g729 codecs. Just a thought


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Location: Canada
Well said, a spider Web. Yes it can be done. And it has no single point of failure. As for the compensation, it cannot be only based on the number of call exchanged. I am sure that you know that it is not true that T1 lines can do free unlimited calls in their local calling area. I know many countries where you still have to pay per minute for you T1 terminated calls. The rate for those calls a slightly lower that the market value. So the full cost of the T1 should be a factor when making a decision for the compensation.

Maoworld I still can't understand what you said ...

Maoworld wrote:
Also, If we make a 1 to 1 agreement the purpose of creating this medium will be defeated becuase the new comers will not benefit from it.
In addition, you will be receiving unwanted questions from those who doesnt know any tech and just jump to the business. I dont think I can withstand it. customer service will take hell of your time.


Basically, if you receive a technical question regarding your routes, then you will have to deal with it whether you are involved in this kind of venture or not. And I think that I can speak for the others when I say that we do not want someone to hide himself behind another carriex like entity and get away with "not offering customer service". None of the partners will have to answer any technical questions about routes that are not their own. And it is not like we are going to have 20 new companies joining in every day. In any case, to deal with them, I think that it has to be on a 1 to 1 agreement.

Cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:43 pm 
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Quote:
Basically, if you receive a technical question regarding your routes, then you will have to deal with it whether you are involved in this kind of venture or not. And I think that I can speak for the others when I say that we do not want someone to hide himself behind another carriex like entity and get away with "not offering customer service". None of the partners will have to answer any technical questions about routes that are not their own. And it is not like we are going to have 20 new companies joining in every day. In any case, to deal with them, I think that it has to be on a 1 to 1 agreement.

I think I understand your concern. I dont know if you can still deal with a customer that buys $25 worth of minutes a month. I am sorry I can not attend to that customer. But we can make it an option that if you want a direct 1 to 1 agreement you can go ahead but those that doesnt have the time for one to one agreement can easily use the other option.
I 100% agree with you that you will be able to give better customer service on your destination than a representative that will only guess.

I think we are getting to a conclusion gradually but I hope this it will not be just for the sake of discussion again.

I still have a question: do you thing we dont need a central or connecting point? I mean where we can send a request or get information about members.

We are able to have a discussion or exchange ideas, despite that we dont even know each other or what we are. This is because we have a common point of meeting each other. Therefore I think we need a communication point. Even to make a 1 to 1 agreement I want some one reardless of how reliable the source is, just to certify you for me. Then I can feel a little bit (not 100% satisfy) OK to deal with you. If you do something wrong I will have a way to damage your business if I can. Example is A2B forum where we know at least nickname of each other.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:20 pm 
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Location: Netherlands
This seems to be an interesting conversation,

I would however like to make mention, that in such a venture, commitment is the key word here, there are lots of peeps that puts up their hands in the air, and when comes to the real deal everyone starts backing off.

What can be done, is a very slow process, to see who's committed.

1. Arrange a general introduction meeting.

Someone, anybody just choose two dates (the date with the most votes shall be the meeting day), if one is really serious, he/she will try to make the time and re-schedule there appointments to make it to this meeting.
There is lots off free tools for web meetings, where everyone can see each other via a webcam or so - (the feeling of trust shall then begin)

This is the first step of making the commitment.

2. What shall be discuss at the meeting.
Well, all the notes that's being gathered here, shall be brainstorm.
if it passes the bill, then it shall be discuss in next meeting..

This shall be the start, keep about 4 meetings, and at the end of those 4 meeting, the really committed folks well be left standing.

At that point, everyone that's left, will be assigned a task, to start doing the issues that were brainstormed.

and before you know it, a business case is created, and then everyone interested can start the technical part of getting it all deployed

just my 0.02cents


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